How to make mealtimes more relaxed with children, with Kirsty Porter – Food For Kids Podcast episode 34

Joanne Roach (00:14)

Hello and welcome to the Food for Kids podcast. I'm Joanne from the Foodies. In the last episode I talked through some of the ways that we can help our children to be more confident with food by talking less about their eating and less about food at the table in general and to do more exploring of food away from the table.

That episode forms a natural two-parter with today's episode, which is about how to take pressure away from the dinner table in general and includes an interview with Kirsty Porter from Nutrition for Kids, who we last heard from back in episode 12 when she talked about sensory issues with foods. After that interview piece I'm going to run through some of the other small and practical things you can do to make dinnertime's feel more comfortable for kids. But let's first hear that chat with Kirsty.

Joanne Roach (00:58)

So Kirsty, one of the big things that people suggest is that we should insist on our children eating what they're given or that they should try something of everything on their plate before they can have pudding or can you have a few more bites before you get down from the table? Can you explain why, well-meaning as they are these kind of methods don't tend to work for Fussy Eaters?

Dr Kirsty Porter (01:21)

Yes, and that's what I want to emphasise is that these strategies come from a place of good intentions. Like you want your kids to eat and you want your kids to grow well and not have any problems with food. But pressure, even subtle, causes stress and that's what turns the meal times into battles. And then kids can eat in the moment to avoid conflict, but over time that damages their ability. they won't listen to their hunger cues and it creates anxiety around food.

So yes, you're thinking, happy days I've got my kids to eat this food, but actually they haven't enjoyed it. They're doing it to keep you happy. So goes back to kind of fundamentally, why am I doing this? And if your child hasn't agreed and accepted that food on their own accord, that's why the meal times become this battle zone where it's like a battle of wills.  And then your kids will hit a point where they're like so stressed and overwhelmed that they'll just be like no flat out refusal.

Joanne Roach (02:07)

So it's not just the fact that if we put pressure on them at meal times they might not eat at that meal, it's also that they might eat at that meal but you're kind of storing up a bank account of resentment and pressure for future so even though it looks like you're making a step forward you might be making two steps back in a journey somewhere else.

Dr Kirsty Porter (02:25)

Yeah, so there's been lots of studies done for instance in nursery they went into these nurseries and they literally were like right let's do these star charts let's reward these kids with eating lots of fruit and vegetables and at the start the studies were like this is fantastic the increase is really really good this is really effective but then they went six months a year later two years later and actually they find it was worse than when they started because that short-term effect of that reward system didn't have that long-term impact because they hadn't enjoyed them. They felt pressured into it and became for them where they had to perform. So that's kind of fundamentally why we don't do it.

Joanne Roach (02:59)

Okay, so that's a situation where it's not just that there's pressure, but there's also some reward. So for those of us who are trying very hard not to say, go on, just one more bite, And we're not doing the overtly pressuring things, but we are maybe really, really praising them and really, really encouraging and making a big fuss about it when they eat something. Is that also backfiring on us quietly?

Dr Kirsty Porter (03:12)

Yes, yes. Yeah, that kind of gentle persuasion or praise can still be experienced as pressure. So when you say things like, you said, just try it for me or good girl, you're eating that broccoli, it puts the kind of focus on the performance and then kids become more focused on pleasing you and kind of tuning out their own body signals. So what you want is your goal is to help your children feel more relaxed and in control of their eating, not judged or evaluated by what they choose to eat or not eat.

So actually parents are gobsmacked when I work with them and I say, this is it. As of tomorrow, you're barred from talking about food at the dinner table. So you can talk about like your general life and what you've been doing, but absolutely no chat about food and about what they haven't eaten. Because often they want to see a reaction. So even a negative reaction like you telling them off is still a reaction and that's what they want to get out of you.

Joanne Roach (04:09)

Okay so if we take out any language about food that isn't purely functional like a simple question and answer about what something is or so on but if we take out any other talking about food. Parents are alright presumably to say that they think something is delicious or in a natural way they can talk about it.

Dr Kirsty Porter (04:18)

Yes. Yeah, yeah, in a natural way. That gave us that kind of like, it's the neutral language. What I mean by that is that you can say like, Mum, good job, I enjoyed dinner or Dad. or sometimes it'll be the opposite. Mum, that wasn't too good, well, you burnt that Like that's still OK to kind of do that. But that's kind of more the neutral language. then as you say.

Sometimes you'll do like a detective game where you can just talk about the food in terms of describing it so you can say what does it feel like what does it smell like but it's describing that food it's not commenting on they like it or they don't it's about that actual description of the food so those conversations can be okay but at the right time and place my experience dinner is probably one of the worst meal times for families because your kids are exhausted, they're finding it hard enough to eat never mind to have to do lots of extra stuff. So you pick when you do those so that might be a snack time or if breakfast is the best meal or you just might be like actually we'll do it as a food play session outside the meal time so you be selective that works for your family in terms of when you start to do things like that.

 Joanne Roach (05:23)

Okay, so it is okay to do the sort of describing the food and investigation of food, as long as you are being really honest with yourself about what the purpose is for talking about that. So like you're not pretending that actually you're talking about the foods neutrally, when actually you're secretly wanting them to eat some more of it.

Dr Kirsty Porter (05:36)

Yes. So I think that's often the experience that parents will assume the first time they introduce a new food, they want their child to eat that food. But it could take them 20 goes before they even are willing to try the new food. So it's about that familiarity their resistance and their fear around that food before they're ready to try it. And the kids are very astute, like they know fine rightly what you like and what you don't like, you know, because my face is, very animated I can't hide my facial expressions. If you're sitting there Joanne and you're being like, this is an amazing dinner and your kids are like, well hold on you just said that's nice but your face suggest otherwise. And we all have foods that we like and don't. So like, know, the reality is your kids will try foods and they're not foods that they enjoy or want to eat. And that's okay because we don't eat every food as well. they need at least try it 20 or 30 times in a different format where most of us give in after one or two times, but that's it. They don't like it. So it's just that sometimes you just need to take a step back and be like, actually, they don't like that food. And that's okay. Like we don't have to like every single food. So you pick one small thing that you can achieve and once you've conquered it, move on to the next one.

Joanne Roach (06:43)

Yeah, okay. So that leads me on to sort of asking Rather than talking about food at the table and encouraging them at the table, which we've said is not a good idea, what should we be doing instead if we want over time our children to eat more foods?

Dr Kirsty Porter (06:55)

So it's about creating that atmosphere and that environment that supports curiosity and comfort. So that can look like having that no pressure zone at the table. We've talked about exploring food games and play food play. So never underestimate that. So particularly for kids under 10, that is the most prominent advice that I always talk about is the importance of food play. And again, most parents, because your kids keep refusing foods, you've probably come to the point where you're just like, what's the point? And you just give up and never offer them new foods, but they'll never learn to accept a new food if they're never exposed to it. But I'm not saying you have to make eight different meals, so whatever the rest of your family's having, that can count as the new food that your child's being exposed to. So keep the foods, but on a separate plate. So again, particularly with sensory kids they don't like foods touching, they don't like those foods near their safe food. So I have what you'd call a yes plate. That's a very small plate and you literally put a teaspoon of food in that plate and they can play with it and interact with it and if and they want to try the new foods they can.

And then don't forget you're your kids biggest role model so particularly with younger kids because they think food's evil it's going to poison them sometimes so if they see mum or dad or grandparents or aunties or uncles or child-minders enjoying that food. So model trying the new foods yourself, talking about it, showing them that you're enjoying it will give them that confidence to be like, well, if they're enjoying it, maybe like it as well.

And never underestimate the power of that kind of calm, no pressure environment because children learn through repeated exposure. And the less you push, the more space they have to engage with that food.

So ultimately, the first thing I would tell you to do is start small. So choose one meal and remove all expectations. So what you can do is serve the meal, sit together and talk about your day instead of the food. So I always talk about this term called family style dining. And that's where you literally put all the food middle of the table and everybody helps themselves and that way even if your child doesn't want to try that food they can plate that food up for you and they can control exactly how much of the food that they want and then watch what happens because when that focus shifts from eating to connecting your kids start to enjoy mealtimes.

But remember, eating with kids is like snakes and ladders game. some weeks you'd be flying, making lots of progress, other weeks you're pretty much the same and then some weeks you'd be like, my word what's happened, we've literally gone back 20 steps. But that can usually be explained because if your child's over emotional, like school's coming to an end so total change in routine and structure, or the heat wave like you know kids have really gone off their food so those are all reasons why sometimes things won't go well so don't fall into the trap of going back to your old ways because you're like right that's it this doesn't work anymore you need to keep at it so let's just take the pressure back and let's just focus on the fundamentals and just keep that and not push with all the extra bits for now

Joanne Roach (09:50)

I really like that description of the snakes and ladders game because we definitely do feel like our children's eating can fluctuate over time. Children who are good eaters can get fussier when they mix with peers who are fussy, or the other way around. Growth spurts, teething, changes in family circumstances or routines, hormonal changes, illness or a negative experience with food can all trigger a backward step in confidence. But I like the idea of seeing that as a snake on the board rather than ending the game because you can always move forward and finish the game no matter how much you slip back. You can just keep rolling your metaphorical dice by encouraging and exposing your child to foods and letting them build their confidence without pressure. So I really loved that idea.

Kirsty went through all the most important factors there of creating a low pressure meal time, but I have some small specifics to add, which are taken from my little 90 minute workshop, I'll just rattle through them quickly but there is more detail in the course if you're interested I'll link to it in the show notes.

First of all, using your child's safe foods is really important. If a child can see that there is something on the plate that they know they can eat and that they will enjoy, they're much more likely to be able to relax and accept that there might be new foods on the table.

Second, harness the seductive power of dips and sauces. If your child doesn't like pasta with red sauce mixed through it, then put some red sauce in a pot and they can dip their pasta pieces into it. If they have favourite condiments and table sauces, let them dip their new foods into those to add some familiarity of taste into that mouthful with new foods in it.

Crunchy or chewy things like breads, crackers, toppings and coatings that they like can soften the weirdness of a new texture that they're not sure about. That's especially helpful with soft, wet or gooey textures.

Joanne Roach (11:30)

As Kirsty suggested, family style dining is great, but if it isn't practical for some meals, then try to just have one or two items in the middle to serve from, even if you've plated up some items for your child already. So maybe you've given them the chicken portion and baked potato, but they can help themselves with the vegetables or salad. Even sauces or condiments or sprinkles in the middle can make a difference if they feel like they have some autonomy.

One basic that often gets overlooked, make sure their chair or high chair feels secure, that they can reach the table well and they don't feel like they're dangling in mid-air. Think how much less relaxed you are when you're eating a meal on a bar stall or if you have to eat standing at a counter. Cushions to raise older children up or foot rests for toddlers can make a big difference. Similarly, make sure their cutlery and tableware is manageable for their smaller hands. Again, think how much bad cutlery or too small plates in a restaurant can take the shine off the experience for us.

And finally, don't make pudding a reward for eating the main course. Serve the main course, let everyone eat what they want and then serve the pudding. Sometimes you can even serve the pudding alongside the main course. It stops the idea that some foods are better than others and some foods are to be enjoyed while others have to be endured. I know that most of us grew up with some of that dynamic but we don't always have to repeat what we learned if new information and learning comes to light.

I hope there's been something useful in today's episode for you. Kirsty has some great resources about meal times on her website, especially but not only for neurodivergent children. I will link in the show notes to her website and to her Instagram, she has lots of great posts about these issues.

I'll be back on Thursday with the monthly roundup on how to store, freeze and use up a different food and this time the episode is a short one about foraging blackberries with children and how to make the most of them. So I hope to see you then and in the meantime, happy eating!

Chapters

00:00 Introduction

00:58 Why pressure and praise can backfire

04:08 How to talk at the table for relaxed mealtimes

05:42 Realistic expectations about how our child might eat

06:55 How to create happier mealtimes

09:49 Some additional ideas for the table

12:48 Summary and outro